#TestChat for 1-24-2012
Blog Post
#TestChat for 1-24-2012
We had a great turnout and Lisa Crispin (@lisacrispin), did a great job with the questions and hosting the conversations.
I want to thank everyone who joined us for our #TestChat on twitter this week: @aclairefication, @AdamYuret, @aJimHolmes, @Arborosa, @aviationfan, @cjweyandt, @clemensreijnen, @eetawil, @gary_masnica, @GlennHalstead, @halperinko, @hintbw, @hornbyrob, @hsfear, @IngunnSO, @JasonStrobush, @jitterted, @Kalyr, @knorrium, @kristoffer_nord, @LovettCA, @marco, @mpkhosla, @nmacafee, @pkirkham, @rajivnarula, @TelerikTesting, @testinggeek, @testinspiration, @testtooljunkie, @timwingfield, @Veretax and @vydra.
I'm still looking for a good solution to presenting the chat here, but for now here is the raw flow of tweets as they went out from top to bottom. I've tried cleaned out the retweets to save some space, but I might have missed one or two.
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 13:54 | If you are joining the #testchat today you might find it easier to follow along on the tweetchat site: http://t.co/2TRIp5fM |  |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 13:59 | @StickyMinds I'm in and ready to see what @lisacrispin wants to know. :) Beware, testing tweeps, #testchat answers coming soon |  |
| STAREAST | 1/24/2012 14:00 | You can also follow along on twebevent http://t.co/1F1zMxm2 #testchat |  |
| STARWEST | 1/24/2012 14:00 | You can also follow along on twebevent http://t.co/VriUnHh2 #testchat |  |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:00 | You can also follow along on twebevent http://t.co/zy4s52Kc #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:01 | To get things started please take a moment and say hello and tell us a little about yourself. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:04 | #testchat howdy, I'm Lisa Crispin, tester on an agile team, and thinker-up of today's Qs. How 'bout you? |  |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:04 | Our first questions will be up in a moment, give a quick shout to @lisacrispin for picking them out. #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:05 | Claire: agile tester, blogger, occasional author of testing articles. Loves meeting other testers! #testchat #testchat | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:05 | First time joining a community full of testers . Feeling a bit nervous :) #testchat |  |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:06 | @StickyMinds : I'm Tim Hall, just started a new contract yesterday. Spent today doing exploratory testing. #testchat |  |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:06 | Welcome @rajivnarula and @aclairefication #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:07 | @rajivnarula welcome! What sort of testing do you enjoy? #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:07 | Jean-Paul. Curious what this #testchat thing is about. |  |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:08 | I love exploratory testing, especially paired ET, but I'll try most approaches once. #testchat #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:08 | Hey @kalyr and @Arborosa thanks for coming #testchat | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:08 | @lisacrispin hmm mostly automation #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:08 | I'm Brett Hinton. Fairly new to the testing field and looking forward to connecting with other testers on #testchat. #testchat |  |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:09 | @aclairefication : I'm quite a long-standing blogger, although my blog is not really about testing. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:09 | @rajivnarula oh, good, our first #testchat topic will be test automation. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:09 | @hintbw thanks for joining #testchat! I think this is a great community-builder. | |
| AdamYuret | 1/24/2012 14:10 | @lisacrispin Oooh Automation, I like that minefield. :-) I'll be lurking. #testchat |  |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:10 | Check out the #testchat hash today, hosted by @lisacrispin Promises to be some interesting discussion! |  |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:10 | #testchat Q1: Have you worked on a "test automation project" that succeeded? What helped it succeed? (pls put #testchat A1 in your answer) | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:10 | @Kalyr I've been blogging a long while, but I don't share my personal blog widely. Testing blog for public consumption #testchat #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:10 | Looking forward following #testchat today #testchat |  |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:10 | @AdamYuret @aJimHolmes looking forward to your #testchat A1! :-> | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:10 | I'm CJ Weyandt. Finally caught up with #testchat. We are almost all manual at this time and looking for ways to automate #testchat |  |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:11 | Tim Western, Tester/Dev and part time test blogger, still working through @lisacrispin Agile Testing book as it happens. #testchat |  |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:11 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1: Yes. Harsh focus on high-value automation, constant learning from what I goofed on, no fear of throwing bad out. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:11 | @cjweyandt Have you ever worked on successful test automation? #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:11 | .@Kalyr She blogs for http://t.co/9etnJ5T9 too CC: @aclairefication #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:11 | @Veretax thanks for joining #testchat! | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:12 | @nmacafee looking fwd to your #testchat input! | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:12 | @StickyMinds Gary Masnica here, been testing a while and dig meeting new testers so we can learn from each other! #testchat |  |
| clemensreijnen | 1/24/2012 14:12 | A1 test automation is succesful only when you automate the most important tests, don't automate everything. #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:12 | #testchat A1, I am on a successful project know. Succeeds mostly due to enthousiatic tester/programmer and ability to schedule time for it | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:12 | #testchat A1: Also vital for automation success: being able to have realistic definition of what success meant! | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:12 | @clemensreijnen #testchat how do you prioritize which tests to automate? | |
| aviationfan | 1/24/2012 14:12 | #testchat automated test success - deciding what not to automate regardless of political fights |  |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:13 | @aJimHolmes #testchat who makes that definition? | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:13 | A1 Automating with discretion in pursuit of continuous delivery, but not automating alone, partnered with developers #testchat #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:13 | #testchat A1 What also helps a lot is the respectful interaction between programmers and testers each acknowledging their strong points | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:13 | @lisacrispin #testchat Who defines automation success? THE TEAM! (You knew I'd say that. :) ) | |
| eetawil | 1/24/2012 14:14 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1: Building our automation incrementally with small steps |  |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:14 | @aviationfan sounds like you and @clemensreijnen have similar views. What political fights can ensue? #testchat | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:14 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1: We are trying to automate regression tests but resources and knowledge is limited #testchat | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:14 | #testchat- should questions be directed to some person or to the wild ? | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:14 | @aclairefication that's what has worked for our team #testchat | |
| clemensreijnen | 1/24/2012 14:14 | @aJimHolmes agree team ans a collaborative culture are most important #testchat | |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:14 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1 Not yet. Have worked on an automation project which never really made much progress. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:15 | @aJimHolmes :-> Meaning the whole dev team, not only testers? #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:15 | A1 Successful test automation depends on the context, and needs some definition before you get too far into an iteration. #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:15 | A1 Our definition of done requires that we pair on automation, whether within the product code base or in separate auto code base #testchat | |
| AdamYuret | 1/24/2012 14:15 | Short answer is no. But I have many opinions around removing the tester/dev distinction. Alignment and collaboration 2 success #testchat A1 | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:15 | @cjweyandt #testchat A1 it does take a big investment of time, people, money up front. As others are pointing out, have to look at ROI | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:16 | @lisacrispin #testchat Entire *project* team. Stakeholders need voice in what makes sense for automation, too. "Show me the money" tests, eg | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:16 | @lisacrispin A1: Currently working on my first one, & hoping it'll be successful. Basing it on a lot of communal lessons learned! #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:16 | @rajivnarula Just put #testchat in the tweet & it's fine | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:16 | Two successes so far: 1 had detailed "data element" definitions. #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:16 | @aclairefication Would love to get our definition of Done to include that #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:16 | A1 Determined need smoke, may want more regression. Wanting to use acceptance criteria of stories to drive it more. #testchat | |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:17 | @aviationfan #testchat A1 "Automate the system test for the whole product" edict from on high is not the most effective approach. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:17 | @Kalyr #testchat A1 I wonder if looking at it as a "project" could be a problem? As opposed to an integral part of dev? | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:17 | #testchat A1 It helped that we didn't see automation as something for regression testing, but as something to drive development as a whole | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:17 | Hey @clemensreijnen @AdamYuret @hintbw @cjweyandt @gary_masnicaa and Veretax thanks for joing us in #testchat | |
| GlennHalstead | 1/24/2012 14:17 | #testchat A1: when creating tests thinking: when this fails or errors how will I know why quickly and easily. Easy Debug is very important. | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:17 | Other was implementing smoke test / data setup - not directly related to specific requirements. #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:18 | A1: Project we are working on has some test automation using one tool but are looking to switch to get more out of our automation #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:18 | @AdamYuret #testchat oooh, removing tester/dev distinction would b a good #testchat topic! | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:19 | The definition of Success may change through the life cycle of a project too, so be prepared to sense when it happens to adapt. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:19 | #testchat A1 "Success" also means starting small, especially when you're trying to build team skills & culture. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:19 | @GlennHalstead #testchat that just came up on our team yesterday as we are looking at our new home-brewed GUI test framework | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:19 | @Arborosa How do you look at automation as a way to drive development? I see the regression and smoke value most readily... #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:20 | @lisacrispin @AdamYuret If we're doin it right, we're educating each other on my cross-functional team so edges start to blur #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:20 | #testchat A1 I'd also say a more intangible measure of "success" in automation is if team trusts the automation. Are red tests ignored? | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:20 | #testchat A1 We should not only look into dev/test but also into automating- and non-automating testers. Sometimes they have higher bariers. | |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:20 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1. Yes. Automating system tests was a separate project from testing new functionality. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:20 | @aJimHolmes #testchat A1 I like the starting small idea, and the "trust" idea - team must commit to keeping tests green | |
| AdamYuret | 1/24/2012 14:21 | @lisacrispin Redefine "done" to mean "deliverable to the client" and limit WIP on eng. Dev's don't pull until story is done #testchat A1 | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:21 | Switching gears, #testchat Q2: What do you think upper management should know about testing? (not limited to automation) | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:22 | #testchat A1: I'm happy that for our first project it's being recognized as an actual development project with budget and time dedicated | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:22 | I'm loving the #testchat Q1 discussion, we could spend the whole time on that! Keep with it, or switch to Q2 if you like. | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:22 | @hintbw @Arborosa Focusing on regression can be a trap, particularly if older tests as first guinea pigs of automation. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:22 | @Arborosa #testchat non-automating testers can pair up with more "techie" devs/testers. There's great synergy when that happens, IMO. | |
| kristoffer_nord | 1/24/2012 14:22 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1 built intern test fw: clear understanding of endusers, constant communication, own DSTL, Dev&test comp. in team | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:22 | @lisacrispin A2: I would say little.... all they should care about is development (which includes testing) #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:22 | @hintbw #testchat Often tests are just as easily automated as manually scripted and executed. This is often overlooked and helps developm. | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:22 | #testchat A2 Management needs to understand testing is whole-team, and not an optional task/project to get cut when pressure hits. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:23 | @aJimHolmes #testchat tester-dev pairing helps ensure well-designed, maintainable tests too, & some of the qualities @GlennHalstead mentiond | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:23 | @lisacrispin A2: That there is no "magic mallet of quality" and testing takes skill and time/effort #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:23 | A2 Mgmt to see testing as not downstream from development but integrated effort #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:24 | A2) I think mgmt should have a good understanding of testing. Often testing is just the end gate. #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:24 | #testchat A2 They should know a lot. But I have experienced that they mostly have to unlearn first. Traditionalism seems to rule. | |
| AdamYuret | 1/24/2012 14:24 | @lisacrispin Mgmt should understand that silos create bottlenecks & opacity creates blame and harms safety. We all share 1 goal #testchat A2 | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:25 | @Veretax Smoke is where I would start, but regression is where the highest value seems to be-Interested in criteria for automation #testchat | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:25 | A2: Upper management should understand the capabilities of the testers in supporting the team beyond just testing. #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:25 | A2 management needs to realize that automation projects may have signifcant inertia to overcome before real value is realized #testchat | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:25 | A2: Mgmt should have to actively participate in a test cycle to see what its really like. #testchat |  |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:25 | #testchat A2 Management also needs to understand testing is about informing them of project risk. Testing is NOT a guarantee of quality. | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:25 | @AdamYuret Exactly. Everyone shares the same goal of building a great product whatever it is. #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:25 | A2 Tell Mgmt that automation code needs good coding practices, standards - though could be separate from product code standards. #testchat | |
| kristoffer_nord | 1/24/2012 14:25 | @lisacrispin #testchat A2: Why we can't test everything, why we can't prove defect free Sw, balance&strengths of aut. vs man. testing | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:26 | @Arborosa To automate a test, the scripting has to occur right, question is how hard is the automation vs repeated execution? #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:26 | @hintbw Smoke may be a good place to start. The earlier you start automation testing efforts, the better, IMO. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:26 | @testtooljunkie #testchat A2 Nicely said! Testers bring a great set of different views to the project. | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:26 | #testchat A2 Mngt should judge development on the value that it adds, not on the cost or alignment with processes or procedures. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:27 | @rajivnarula #testchat I really love your A2! So important that testing is integral part of dev, not separate phase/activiity | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:27 | @testtooljunkie What additional roles/contributions do you see happening most readily on your teams? #testchat | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:27 | @testtooljunkie #testchat Great point! Testers can provide a great deal of team value beyond just testing :) | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:27 | A2 #testchat Also: testing, doesn't begin when the programmers are done, we can bring value throughout the dev life cycle. | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:27 | #testchat A2 Management also needs to understand testing takes same resources as dev: equipment, people, time, MENTORING AND LEARNING, too. | |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:27 | @LovettCA : #testchat A2 Test Managers should always do some actuall testing, not purely co-ordinate the testers | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:28 | Saw an undercover bosses tweet to that effect yesterday @LovettCA Mgmt should actively participate in a test cycle #testchat | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:28 | A2: Mgmt should understand that testers are the only ones on the team that follow the sw from birth to EOL. #testchat | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:28 | #testchat Q2 Management also needs to understand that adding more bodies late in a project does not make testing better. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:28 | @testtooljunkie #testchat that's a great point! Testers bring a lot more to the party, "testing" covers a wide range of contributions | |
| JasonStrobush | 1/24/2012 14:28 | @aclairefication @aJimHolmes So, the $1,000,000,000 question is, how to get that knowledge into their hands. #testchat |  |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:29 | @LovettCA #testchat interesting idea! How would you try to do that? | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:29 | #testchat A2 Testers do have to know how to tell the testing story. That is telling the information that mgt needs to take decisions. | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:29 | A2: Some tester roles: Help doc writers, help support personnel, ... #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:29 | A2 Testers might be better served teaching the whole team testing thinking rather than cranking out artifacts #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:30 | @testtooljunkie #testchat hmmm. I hadn't thought of that. Is it true, are testers the only ones all the way thru? Shouldn't it be everyone? | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:30 | @JasonStrobush Lots of conversations. Not easy, takes time. Totally worth it, though. #testchat /cc @aclairefication | |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 14:30 | @cjweyandt #testchat A2 - That's a universal truth, not specific to testing | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:31 | Q3 is coming up! #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:31 | @aclairefication #testchat I think that's an important contribution we can make | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:31 | @cjweyandt Or more devs, either! #testchat | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:31 | @lisacrispin I say put them in a lab with docs from a previous event and see what they do with it. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:31 | #testchat Q3 related some to Q2: How do you keep your testing transparent to others on your team and in the organization? | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:31 | @lisacrispin On small teams, it is everyone. On large teams, people get segmented ... except testers (generally) #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:31 | @aclairefication #testchat A2: Artifacts, FTL. Agree on teaching whole-team approach over writing artifacts! | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:32 | @Kalyr Very true. #testchat #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:32 | @nmacafee me too! Sorry! Maybe my Qs are too broad #testchat | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:32 | If all the processes and procedures are in place they should be able to "repeat" it. But only in a perfect world. :-) #testchat | |
| kristoffer_nord | 1/24/2012 14:32 | @Arborosa #testchat problem is, how do you measure the value that testing brings, lots of nonmonetary benefits, but hard with business value | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:32 | @testtooljunkie #testchat that is true a lot of places, though I would like to change it! Though sometimes sep. test team necessary | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:32 | @lisacrispin Code coverage. yes for manual and automation testing too - please #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:33 | A3) Make what we test and our results very visual and easy to read. #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:33 | A3) Make what we test and our results very visual and easy to read. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:33 | @lisacrispin #testchat A3 I've not done well on this, especially on remote teams. Simple metrics not a good way for transparency. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:33 | @nmacafee #testchat got any examples of visual results? | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:33 | A3 Transparency through Big Visible Testing. We need more ways to show others quality info at a glance, may tailor to audience. #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:33 | #testchat A3 Ties in with previous answer. Testers should be able to tell what they do, why they do it and what value it adds . | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:33 | @lisacrispin #testchat A3: Constant communication. Through the tracking system, email, in person, whatever is needed at the time. | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:34 | #testchat A3 Posting of great bug finds or early scope wins with testers is a great help, either on team board, wiki, blog, etc. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:34 | @gary_masnica #testchat IME DTS doesn't provide good communication, I like in person, phone, IM, email - direct as possible | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:34 | @aJimHolmes #testchat good idea - leadership includes helping others understand our contributions, value we added | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:35 | A3) Cross training, peer reviews, running another team members' procedures #testchat | |
| hsfear | 1/24/2012 14:35 | #testchat A2 One thing testing can't tell you is what hasn't been tested - therefore it cannot tell you project risk |  |
| timwingfield | 1/24/2012 14:35 | @lisacrispin #testchat A2: the value of exploratory testing, that unit tests by themselves aren't enough, and that QA isn't a cost to cut. |  |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:35 | @lisacrispin Mind maps for test cases. Dashboards with colour coding (Red, Yellow, Green) for results. #testchat | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:35 | @lisacrispin A3: BDD is an excellent way of lowering the walls between the testers and others in the team #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:35 | A3 Organizing testing results to address their concerns, e.g. POTeam needs to see testing status to make calls on sprint changes #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:35 | A3 Transparency entirely depends on the team sometimes a source control, bug tracking system accomplishes that, sometimes reports. #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:35 | #testchat A3 Use the tooling or presentation form that business and management understands or is comfortable with. #itdepends | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:36 | @rajivnarula #testchat A3 good point, have you been doing BDD? | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:36 | A3: We communicate with Dev & Design teams constantly as well. Luckily we r all in same room :) #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:36 | @kristoffer_nord @lisacrispin I would never say that. That is a pet peeve of mine #testchat | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:36 | @lisacrispin #testchat the DTS is used more for visibility. Using dashboards, charts, and all that good stuff. Makes info easily accessible | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:36 | @Kalyr @LovettCA #testchat A2:Test Managers some times can't do some actuall testing, at least in large groups - But must Debrief constantly | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:36 | @Arborosa #testchat A3 I agree, we have to talk to ppl outside of s/w dev in their language | |
| kristoffer_nord | 1/24/2012 14:37 | @lisacrispin @nmacafee #testchat for once non-func. results are easier to visualize: how much faster perf., what uptime in stab. tests etc. | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:37 | A3: We also Post & track defects. Test cases available in Proj Mgt software, but does anyone read them? #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:37 | @lisacrispin You posted about visiting a shop with an app map for story context, so I did that yesterday for bugs. @nmacafee #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:37 | @hsfear It could inform the determination of project risk though, couldn't it? #testchat | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:37 | @lisacrispin Which reminds me, I still owe you some examples of those dashboards! :) #testchat | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:37 | @lisacrispin A3: Yes.recently started using eastB . Easiest way to get developers involved- ask them to code something :) #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:37 | #testchat A3 Maybe simply admitting "success" for transparency varies greatly with each team. Constant re-assessment of what's working. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:37 | @aclairefication #testchat A3 what a great idea! I have to remember to try that! | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:37 | #testchat A3 Inside the team you can use dev tooling, dashboard or other. On your own I find mindmaps inspiring and easy to transfer. | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:37 | Great chat so far. Lots of amazing responses! #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:38 | So when we talk dashboards, visuals, what do we want on there that the team will pay attention repeatedly is the question for me? #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:38 | @lisacrispin When I get my camera fixed, I'll take some photos for ya. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:38 | @hintbw #testchat A3 I think it's imp. to make impediments visible - what's blocking progress - get the ppl who can un-block involved | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:38 | @aclairefication #testchat thanks! | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:38 | @lisacrispin @aclairefication URL for that post? <3 the idea! #testchat A3 | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:39 | @hintbw #testchat what's relevant could change by day and depend on Team Context. In agile environments, story completion could be one 1/2 | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:39 | @hintbw #testchat Well #itdepends. I do not think there a 'best' practice for this. Get ideas from others, learn and apply to your context. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:39 | @aJimHolmes @aclairefication #testchat was it this one? http://t.co/u4GiAYuF | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:39 | A3 UX designer may process bugs UI-oriented while Dev might address bugs oriented to code base #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:40 | @hintbw #testchat area, another possibility could be categorization, what area testing was done, what kind, when, how long, etc. | |
| hsfear | 1/24/2012 14:40 | #testchat A2 Upper management in a small company has far different needs than upper management in a large one. So, yes and no. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:40 | @hintbw #testchat A3 I also like visuals that show which user stories had some problems so we can talk about that in the retrospective | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:41 | #testchat switching gears again, Q4: Are testers on your team treated with the same respect as programmers? (sorry so many diff topics!) | |
| knorrium | 1/24/2012 14:42 | @lisacrispin are you logging all the tweets with the #testchat hash tag? :) |  |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:42 | #testchat feel free to continue on other topics tho! It's a free-for-all! But good connections being made here | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:42 | A4: Nope. Testers are the bottom of the barrel where I'm at. :-( #testchat | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:42 | @lisacrispin It is not so much the problems that make visuals appealing - it is the solutions. #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:42 | A4 Yes, we are peers with different focuses and much to teach one another. Respect is the basis of professional relationships. #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:42 | A4 #testchat some teams they are treated as full members of the team, and some they aren't, I've been on teams with both situations. | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:42 | @lisacrispin Same/More respect than Devs - But much lower Salary... #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:42 | @knorrium OMG I have no idea how to do that, anyone else know how to save all the #testchat tweets? @StickyMinds is doing this hopefully? | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:42 | #testchat A4 YES. I count myself lucky to work for a company that values testers and programmers equally with same growth and carrier paths | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:43 | #testchat A4 Mixed history on respect/perceived value of testers. Some jobs, absolutely. Others? Not so much. | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:43 | #testchat A4: As humans, yes. But opinions/assessments are dismissed much more readily if they aren't agreeable to what wants to be heard. | |
| rajivnarula | 1/24/2012 14:43 | @lisacrispin #testchat In my team Yes! but have seen otherwise in the past #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:43 | @lisacrispin Yes, I just thought the photos were on the blog page, so couldn't find it easily @aJimHolmes #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:43 | Really enjoying the #testchat topics today. Lots of good ideas and perspectives being shared. | |
| hsfear | 1/24/2012 14:44 | #testchat A4 yes, but always with a separate measure of technical evaluation. | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:44 | .@lisacrispin @knorrium We will archive them clean them up and post on http://t.co/Wn6HNF94 soon. No worries. #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:44 | What conditions are needed for testers to be treated with the same respect as developers would be my question? Skills, processes? #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:44 | @Veretax #testchat A4 any idea what makes the difference between those teams? | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:44 | A4) On a team level yes, but in company less growth opportunities, and in industry generally paid less #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:44 | @halperinko #testchat A4 interesting - so, respected, but valued less? | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:45 | A4: I have found that testers create their own respect. It isn't the role that brings the respect, it is the contribution. #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:45 | A3: Need Dashboard - but Automatic one, which doesn't take hours and days to prepare weekly status... #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:45 | @lisacrispin Or so they tell me...A4 peers different focuses much to teach one another. Respect is the basis of prof relationships #testchat | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:45 | #testchat A4: This can vary wildly though. In many areas of the s/w dev industry there is zero respect shown (game dev I'm lookin' at you) | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:45 | .lisacrispin @knorrium And we will let everyone know when it is posted. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:45 | #testchat A4 You can grow respect/value for testers over time. Emphasis on "over time." Not easy. CHANGE where you work, or change WHERE… | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:45 | @lisacrispin A4 A testing position is basically the job no one wants. There's a high turnover rate. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:45 | @gary_masnica #testchat A4 oooh, fascinating. I have had that experience as well. Ppl don't want to hear bad news! | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:45 | @lisacrispin A4 In some cases it's just a matter of education, or establishing credibility of what testers can actually do. #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:46 | @halperinko Working on one now. I hope to be able to share it with community. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:46 | @aclairefication @aJimHolmes There is a #StickyMinds #TechWell interview w/ photos - I'll find it for you #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:46 | @hsfear #testchat A4 that seems appropriate, though? Different technical knowledge needed? | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 14:47 | A4. Yes. One reason is the developers don't understand what _good_ testers (i.e., ET) actually _do_. #testchat |  |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:47 | A4 Testers need to find ways to educate their team, and prove that they are credible at doing their jobs to gain respect. #testchat | |
| pkirkham | 1/24/2012 14:47 | A4: Yes, I'm treated with respect. In my past life as a dev I did not treat our tester with any, he didn't earn it #testchat |  |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:47 | @LovettCA A4: Not where I come from - In Telecom testers are mostly long term Pro. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:47 | @hintbw #testchat A4 IME, strong Community of Practice, tester practice leads providing lots of support, training, time for testers to learn | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:47 | @lisacrispin Oh, the link's there. I remember seeing the pix before. @aJimHolmes #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:48 | @testtooljunkie #testchat A4 So true, I've had to earn credibility in every job, it takes work! | |
| IngunnSO | 1/24/2012 14:48 | @lisacrispin A4: yep, on my current team I definitely think so. I think everyone creates their own respect, regardless of role. #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:48 | #testchat A4 My perception is testers are valued differently in US-UK than in continental Europa. Eg. GTAC talk, say test and earn -30%. | |
| LovettCA | 1/24/2012 14:48 | @halperinko A4 I wish I lived in YOUR world. :-) #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:48 | @nmacafee A3: Dashboards must take advantage of BTS and Test Mng./ALM - so often a bit specific. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:49 | @pkirkham #testchat A4 I've met too many testers who were not a credit to our profession! | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:49 | Last Question coming up! #testchat | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:49 | @jitterted #testchat I think this is a big part of it. Ignorance of what testers actually do day-to-day lends to the problem. Gotta educate! | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:49 | A4 Testers need to work toward better technical comprehension to grow respect, improve bug reports, see better test opportunities #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:49 | @lisacrispin Example of test cases in mind maps up on the wall for all to see #testchat http://t.co/QRxjXNjW | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:49 | @jitterted @lisacrispin Most Dev's may have a simplistic view of testing, as they haven't studied it as in depth as a tester has. #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:49 | @jitterted A4: Wait till you need to explain to mng. what good test managers do... #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:50 | @Arborosa #testchat A4 so there are geographical diffs - what about y'all in other parts of the world? | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 14:50 | @veretax [A4] In what ways can testers educate the rest of the team about what they're doing and how they're doing it well? #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 14:50 | Should we have a chat on mindmapping tools and techniques? #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:50 | A4 Dev experience helps with respect, but it's just a special case of technical comprehension, learning. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:50 | @nmacafee WIN! That's awesome. #testchat /cc @lisacrispin | |
| hsfear | 1/24/2012 14:50 | @lisacrispin #testchat A4 In tech cos, I think everyone is evaluated both at their role and their overall "techiness". | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:51 | @StickyMinds Yes to chat on mind mapping! #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:51 | @StickyMinds #testchat that'd be super! | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:51 | Planning to try this @nmacafee: @lisacrispin Example of test cases in mind maps up on the wall for all to see http://t.co/BYcOBFZl #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:51 | @jitterted A4: I like to give short background presentations to dev teams - it helps focus on quality #testchat | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 14:52 | @aJimHolmes Thanks! #testchat | |
| hsfear | 1/24/2012 14:52 | @lisacrispin #testchat A4 Can be respected in one, other or both | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:52 | #testchat A5 Gain respect by GIVING respect. Devs aren't idiots, neither is biz. Testers aren't God with the stone tablet truth. | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:52 | @nmacafee #testchat we're experimenting w/ an online, real-time collaborative mind map tool, tho so far, not much used :-< | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:52 | @nmacafee #testchat whiteboarding the mind map has worked better | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:52 | #testchat A5 Gain respect by collaborating more. Work way in to conversations throughout the entire project's cycle. | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 14:53 | @halperinko [A4] Having been a test mgr for a short period of time (dual role as dev mgr), I see the disconnect clearly. #testchat | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:53 | #testchat A5 Show you care about the project as a whole, not just your corner. Be a mensch. :) | |
| testtooljunkie | 1/24/2012 14:53 | A5: Tester earn respect by: 1) make devs more productive, 2) make mgt more effective, and 3) make co look good #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:53 | @jitterted [A4] Talking and sitting with the Devs, Pairing when it makes sense. Treating devs with respect, and using 'tact' #testchat | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:53 | A5 Asking better questions and really understanding what you r testing. #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 14:53 | The mind map issues sounds like transparency of work opp. Where we can expose more transparency of the work that we are doing? #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:53 | Q5 Learning the technologies under test, collaborating, sharing thought processes, making tactful suggestions. Start with respect. #testchat | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 14:54 | @halperinko [A4] Tester-Dev pairing consistently and over a period of time helps a lot. Hard to do, though. #testchat | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:54 | [A5] To get respect, you have to give respect, but you also need time to show off your skills, Pairing is very effective in this. #testchat | |
| Arborosa | 1/24/2012 14:54 | #testchat awesome feed. Sorry to have to leave. Have skype coaching session to do... | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:54 | A5 Start with respect for devs, UX, PM, other team members. Draw on their expertise and strengths. Admit they have much to teach. #testchat | |
| cjweyandt | 1/24/2012 14:54 | @aJimHolmes Ditto on mind maps #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:54 | @Arborosa thanks for participating, you had some helpful insights for #testchat! | |
| AdamYuret | 1/24/2012 14:54 | @jitterted @veretax I dont have 2 communicate 2 my wife wht I bring 2 the marriage. we're not siloed. Mk whole ValuStream visible. #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:55 | @StickyMinds A5: And of course, not leaving important bugs in GA release. (Luck ? :-) ) #testchat | |
| IngunnSO | 1/24/2012 14:55 | #testchat A5 Focus on collaboration, and delivering a high quality product - as a TEAM. Be curious. Share. Ask questions. Learn new things. | |
| Veretax | 1/24/2012 14:56 | @AdamYuret @jitterted Right, the question of how to educate of role, is highly contextual to the team make up and processes used #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:56 | A5 Testers can't stop bugs going out, that's POTeam call @halperinko @StickyMinds A5: not leaving important bugs in GA release #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:56 | @halperinko #testchat A5 but, those bugs weren't put there by the testers, it was a team effort! ;-> | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 14:57 | [A5] Understanding the problem domain in a deep way and be able to communicate and demonstrate that understanding to mgmt/dev. #testchat | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 14:58 | @adamyuret Yes, but which comes first: working as a Whole Team or Education Devs About Testing? #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 14:58 | @lisacrispin A5: Agree - But we must make all we can to find Important issues early, so these could be fixed #testchat | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 14:58 | A5 Not just implementations. @jacebennett tells me think, talk, analyze in terms of business events. Know them inside & out. #testchat | |
| AdamYuret | 1/24/2012 14:59 | @jitterted Working as a whole team will educate everybody about everybody. :-) 1 will lead 2 the other. Clarity is a gr8 teacher #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 14:59 | @nmacafee #testchat yes, that's why we are trying the online collaborative mindmap | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 14:59 | @jitterted I think it's all part of the same process building a great team environment, isn't it? #testchat /cc @adamyuret | |
| gary_masnica | 1/24/2012 14:59 | #testchat A5: Learn and don't stop. Work directly with your teams and communicate on their level. Just that does wonders. | |
| aJimHolmes | 1/24/2012 15:00 | Wow. 50 minutes just FLEW by in the #testchat discussion. I got a *lot* out of it. Time to go work & digest it all. | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 15:00 | The hour is up on up this week's #testchat, but don't feel like you need to stop chatting. Feel free to keep things going! #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 15:01 | I want to thank @lisacrispin for her questions and help today. You should really be following her. #testchat BIG BIG THANKS! | |
| jitterted | 1/24/2012 15:02 | @ajimholmes Exactly. People need to educate each other _in order_ to become a Whole Team. #testchat /cc @AdamYuret | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:02 | @lisacrispin @nmacafee yes, that's why ... mindmap - Still can't figure out where MM better than ALM Tests Tree(maybe some colors) #testchat | |
| STAREAST | 1/24/2012 15:02 | We are always looking for ideas and suggestions for the #testchat, so please contact us at "info (at) techwell (dot) com" | |
| STARWEST | 1/24/2012 15:02 | We are always looking for ideas and suggestions for the #testchat, so please contact us at "info (at) techwell (dot) com" | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 15:02 | We are always looking for ideas and suggestions for the #testchat, so please contact us at "info (at) techwell (dot) com" | |
| aclairefication | 1/24/2012 15:02 | @lisacrispin @StickyMinds et al. Thanks for #testchat today! Gotta run to meeting. I'll check back later on. | |
| eetawil | 1/24/2012 15:02 | @lisacrispin #testchat A2: Mgmt need to understand how agile testers mindset works and where agile testers can bring value in agile dev | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 15:04 | @halperinko #testchat got an url for ALM Tests Tree example? | |
| eetawil | 1/24/2012 15:04 | @lisacrispin #testchat A3: By making everyone participate in testing, not necessarily all together at the same time. Whole-team approach | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:04 | @StickyMinds Really enjoyed the chat, but very hard to follow - so quick and no hierarchy of posts #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 15:04 | @StickyMinds #testchat it was my pleasure! I got some great new ideas to try, hope others did too | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 15:05 | @aclairefication thank YOU & all the other #testchat participants! Makes me so proud of our profession to talk w/ such smart ppl! | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 15:05 | @halperinko #testchat agreed. I think I should have kept all Qs to one topic area. Good learning for me! | |
| eetawil | 1/24/2012 15:06 | @lisacrispin #testchat A4: Testers needs to demonstrate what their real value is in an agile team, this is how they will get respect. | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:06 | @lisacrispin ALM Tests Tree example can be found under http://t.co/HtrZGEWZ demo site for instance #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 15:06 | @halperinko We are looking into ways to make it easier to follow and read after. #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:07 | @lisacrispin It's not the amount of topics, as the twitter structure - I for once prefer discussion board -if we could drag all in #testchat | |
| kristoffer_nord | 1/24/2012 15:09 | @lisacrispin #testchat A5 by showing a true willingness to learn and improve oneself in the craft | |
| eetawil | 1/24/2012 15:09 | @lisacrispin #testchat A5: By being a facilitator to dev team, by learning more about business and technology so to better challenge devs | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:10 | @StickyMinds @lisacrispin Consider gathering in Discussion board, and tweet just key points #testchat | |
| StickyMinds | 1/24/2012 15:10 | Thank you again everyone! We had over 400 tweets and 35+ people join us for this weeks #testchat | |
| hintbw | 1/24/2012 15:11 | @StickyMinds Great #testchat today! @lisacrispin was a great host and the questions stirred some valuable conversations. Thanks! | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:12 | @StickyMinds @lisacrispin - As I see it, Chat success is by having so many testers in same place at once, but sturcture is a limit #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 15:14 | @halperinko #testchat I hear ya, though I also find it kind of energizing, lots of "balls in the air", ideas flying around fast! | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:17 | @lisacrispin It was amazing, and energizing - but we probably blocked LinkedIn stream with all updates :-) #testchat | |
| Kalyr | 1/24/2012 15:18 | @StickyMinds @halperinko : I deliberately made all my answers @replies, so they wouldn't clutter up the streams of non-#testchat people. | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:20 | @Kalyr I also used @replies, but they still get to all friends in LinkedIn :-( I'm sure they don't appreciate it. #testchat | |
| hornbyrob | 1/24/2012 15:22 | @StickyMinds q5: sometimes the tester is undone by the process. Documentation outdated leading to looking like lack of knowledge. #testchat |  |
| hornbyrob | 1/24/2012 15:24 | @StickyMinds a5: Equally there are alot of bad testers out there who undermine the rest. Good testers are best people on project. #testchat | |
| lisacrispin | 1/24/2012 15:25 | @hintbw #testchat thanks for your tweets, I got a lot from them! | |
| hornbyrob | 1/24/2012 15:28 | @StickyMinds a5: Testers need to be technically aware and have good domain knowledge. Many don't have either, based on retail exp #testchat | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:33 | @hornbyrob @StickyMinds #testchat -It's our job as Mng. to give them good Tech&Test Knowledge-They WILL improve,that's not why test imp low | |
| halperinko | 1/24/2012 15:49 | @GlennHalstead #testchat A1: for Easy Debug - Use Drill-Down Logs. Any one knows of good generic Drill-Down Logs we can add to diff ATEs? | |
| nmacafee | 1/24/2012 16:14 | @lisacrispin Thanks for the #testchat. Had to leave for a meeting so catching up on conversation now. | |
| testinspiration | 1/25/2012 0:22 | @lisacrispin #testchat A1: we run lots of unit test and we had a guy that know how to success. |  |
| testinspiration | 1/25/2012 1:08 | @lisacrispin #testchat A2 not much. Just that testing does not increase quality and not to blame the tester for bad software | |
| testinspiration | 1/25/2012 1:16 | @lisacrispin #testchat A3 durring daily stand up. Most of time, rest of organization not intressted in daily test. Just finally result | |
| testinspiration | 1/25/2012 1:17 | @lisacrispin #testchat A4. Yes the are team member. | |
| jitterted | 1/25/2012 14:25 | Was yesterday's #testchat consolidated somewhere? | |
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